| Author | Message |
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| Andy | Post subject: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 578 |
|
 | If anyone is still around tomorrow, TV and I are heading to the Canoexpo in Stoneleigh. There are some interesting-sounding presentations on throughout the day. If you would like a lift, let me know. Leaving campus around 11am. |
Posted:
Sat 16th Feb, 2008
8:06pm |
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| Chris | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 820 |
|
 | There were some good presentations you're right, the video coaching was interesting and other than mine the only one I got to see. Shame the club was away, to have such a large event on our door step and to miss it! |
Posted:
Sun 17th Feb, 2008
9:04pm |
| tv tom | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 1139 |
|
 | franco ferrero was pretty good as well, although not as good as a white water safety course, I can now use and understand pully's....but need prussics |
Posted:
Sun 17th Feb, 2008
9:22pm |
| Where Am I | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 757 |
|
 | i was recently (reliably) informed that the modern thinking was that prussics are bad (not to be used) on standard throwlines, (because of the melting points of the line) and unnecessary anyway...
You can make 2-1 and 4-1 pulley systems easily with only a couple of crabs... so why bother with prussics? |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
12:26am |
| Dick Johnson | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 879 |
|
 | I think prussics are good for:
If you need to attach a carabiner to a rope in various places as the rescue goes on you don't need to untie and retie a load of knots that have probably ended up fairly tight after coming under tension. If you use one rope to set up a 4:1 then you need a very long rope I think.
You could dip the rope in the river before hand to dissipate some of the heat by heating up the water in the rope. We've done this caving before to stop the unpleasant singed smell as your half way down a long rope while descending! The prussics shouldn't really move when they're tight so shouldn't generate heat anyway. We had some trouble with French prussics slipping (typical) on our safety and rescue course but this may be because our prussic cord was too thick.
This makes sense to me, but I'm not saying it's the truth! |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
9:38am |
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| tv tom | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 1139 |
|
 | surely a knot would be bloody difficult to untie and cause a weakspot on the rope? As G said, if you do the right prussic it shouldnt slip |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
10:56am |
| Myles | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 162 |
|
 | I didn't go but I heard some of the talks were pretty good. Found this on another forum. Most of it is common sense but thought it might be useful. Quote:Here we go with the up to date info hot from Francos talk at Canoexpo.
He reckons that if he is with a peer group he would carry a throwbag with a krab and one sling with a krab. If all of the group has the same they then have plenty between them. If they are running technical WW each would add a pulley and a prussik.
If he was working as group leader he would make sure he has at least throwbag, and 2 each of sling, krab and prussik.
He is looking to keep the weight to the minimum whilst catering the kit to the needs of the trip but the overiding advice is to practice with the kit and don't carry anything you are not confident in using - it's just pointless extra weight. The whole ethos of the talk was keep things as simple as possible, don't set up complicated pulley based systems when a simple vector pull will do the job.
I always do a group check at the put in so each knows who is carrying what to ensure we have enough but not too much and it is distributed evenly so that if any one boat gets pinned we have the right kit in the others to do a rescue and recovery. I've always thought it to be in my interest to ensure the group can rescue me!
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Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
11:17am |
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| Chris | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 820 |
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| One could set up a 3:1 system without the use of a knot or prussic, but requires firstly that a rope and karb is securely attached to the boat and then secondly a pulley and rope attached again. I have found this to often be the hardest element of this type of rescue, where the second would often be harder than the first. To save this trouble a correct diameter prussic and quality throw bag could do the job. I have only really found prussics to melt through ropes when pulling very high loads so rafts or Alpine water or when set up incorrectly. I also like to have a braking system in any mechincal advantage. A rope jamming device could be used but is a rather specific (and heavy/bulky?) piece of equipment to carry around for the few occassions a year. I reckong Paul Smith is the man to ask for further and more detailed knowledge, would be interesting to know more though Hayden as I'm always interested in new ideas and methods. |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
11:22am |
| Andy | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 578 |
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| The reasons Ferrero said for using a prussic as an attachment point for a pulley were that it allowed you to use a shorter rope (reducing the amount of energy dissipated through rope stretch), and also removes the need to return to the boat to attach a pulley (if you already have a rope on it).
Experience (and the dent in my leg) suggests that ropes snap at the knot before the prussics slip.
Saying that, all his examples were done on canyoning rope. |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
1:17pm |
| Where Am I | Post subject: Re: Canoexpo | |
| Posts: 757 |
|
| the way I was shown to do a 4-1 (with no knots) 3 crabs (could use 2 if you put the line through grab loop)
anyway see here link
I wasn't convinced a prussic would be bad all the time, that was just what I was told (at least with a throwline),doing a prussic on canyoning rope was fine...
It seems to me all a question of how long you have to do it... if you are just paddling most likely you won't be carrying a canyoning rope? but if you are rafting or called in specifically to haul something out you would... Of course it is VERY situation dependent!! And I would use one if I had no choice (but would think twice about using one if it was a life or death person pinned rescue (if it breaks at the prussic they pretty much die) and try to think of a way to avoid it,
no knots and no prussics sounds at least like a safe option (anyway I don't really know, I just try to think about it a little) |
Posted:
Mon 18th Feb, 2008
3:32pm |
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